The two poets, Larkin and MacNeice, explore loss of love in different contexts; one pre-WW2 and one post-WW2. The different contexts are conveyed in the poems with the earlier poem presenting the reader with a restrained exposure of loss resulting in hidden emotions whilst the later poem acknowledges that the lack of passion now results in conversation ‘unkind’ and ‘untrue’. Both poets use language to convey feelings of isolation in a complex fashion. Metaphors for love in the initial phase from MacNeice include a ballet with costumes and flower imagery “calyx upon calyx”. The metaphors are extended as marriage approaches with a “lock” that must be entered, never to return. Larkin, similarly, uses the metaphor to communicate repressed passion whereby the “wind’s incomplete unrest” remains “outside” and “dark towns heap up on the horizon”. Both poets use the metaphor to explore feelings of loss after the promise of passion to some extent.
Larkin's 'Talking in bed' portrays the more sinister side to love, it is evident Larkin is describing the faded bond of love between supposedly him and his partner. It is portrayed that something as simple as 'Talking in bed' with a partner can become a testing task between the two, as there is a huge lack of communication - "It becomes still more difficult to find words at once true and kind". This line represents the loss of that electric connection the couple once maintained, however now there seems to be such a little spark, if any. However, Eliot's 'Dedication to my wife' seems to portray a complete opposite side of love, through a poem written for his wife at their wedding. This poem is very passionate and emotive, in contrast to Larkin's blunt, almost disappointed toned used throughout 'Talking in bed'. Eliot portrays his strong sense of love and bond to his partner by stating "Who think the same thoughts without need of speech." This shows that Eliot does not feel obliged to communicate with his lover, unlike Larkin, as their connection is deep enough to bring them together - even with no verbal communication.
Lily Foreman: In the poem 'Talking in Bed' Larkin portrays this poem in a different more relaxed way as the poem creates a sombre, intimate atmosphere expressed in private through the closeness of lying in bed. But, this can suggest that things are not as good as they can only communicate in a homily setting and nowhere else which could mean that they have trouble communicating in general. This poem can also suggest that there is a slight isolation between the couple as this is shown through the iambic pentameter as "telling lies over a long period of time" could show that the couple have been lying to each other for a while now, maybe about their true feelings towards each other as the spark in the marriage could has simply disappeared. However, in contrast to this in 'Dedication to my wife' Eliot expresses love in a more public view as he uses metaphors such as, 'the leaping delight' and 'the rhythm' which can portray two different types of love. Whereas in 'Talking in bed' only suggests one type of love which has faded over time. Eliot suggests love in many stages, as the first stage he mentions is of the infatuation stage where love is seen as magical as it can make you 'leap' of delight skipping of the heartbeat. But, as time progresses the 'rhythm' can remain dead as this is what remains after the euphoria has gone.
In comparison to 'Talking in bed', 'Les Sylphides is more emotive as Neice ends his poem is a more cold ending when they get married as he comes to the realisation that is is no longer magical, but being married creates a more honest approach as reality has hit him, such as finaces and having children; This poem written by Mac Neice is simular to the poem 'Talking in bed' by Larkin as they both use a depressive tone when refering to their love. Neice portrays the beginning of their love through the flawlessness of ballet as it is shown both in illustrating the imagery of the ballet, by the scene set in the second phrase of the first line, `He took his girl to the ballet`, and from then, a series of beautiful and romantic images are created of the show to show how happy and joyful their relationship was.The white and girlish clothes symbolize the purity and innocence of the relationship and the lovers. However, the end of the romance begins in the phrase, `But the music stopped` and this is followed through later with, `And so they were married`. Real life is seen to enter in the last three stanzas, and here MacNeice abandons the romantic love felt at the beginning, showing instead the drudgery of domestic life. The tone changes to more pensive reflecting on deep thoughts and wistful. The use of the interval in these stanzas: `-a shuffle of programmes - ` and `- to be the more together -`, marks a change from the flowing, even line rhythm earlier in the poem.
Although 'Les Sylphides' written by Louis MacNeice is describing a very similar situation to Larkin's 'talking in bed' he does it in a very emotive way, rather than an angry way. The deepening sadness within MacNeice's poem is clear to be throughout, as he describes their unbreakable almost honeymoon period at the beginning of their relationship. However, Larkin starts his poem off instantly with a negative ora. Due to the fact that MacNeice starts his poem off with a happy tone and slowly fades into a saddening tone the reader may feel deeply upset by this situation, as it is evident a once extremely happy relationship has shattered into a broken bond, due to life experiences. This could also create a very saddening feeling towards the reader, as it is very common for this to happen, even in this day and age.
As well as this, Larkin uses the dull weather to portray his feelings, in contrast to this MacNeice uses a beautiful imagery of ballet, which is often related to elegance and the feeling of weightlessness, much like the feeling of love. Therefore, his feelings could be relatable to the readers. As a result of this, the heartbreak MacNeice experiences towards the end of the poem could be seen as extremely emotional and effective towards his feelings, as it's clear he had a strong sense of love for his lover at the beginning of the poem. This is very similar to Eliot's poem 'dedication to my wife' as he is extremely open about his excitable feeling of love towards his soon to be wife.
MacNeice conveys the deterioration of the love which he once shared with his wife by the use of deep, meaningful metaphors "The river had come to a lock" which conveys that he felt as though he and his girlfriend could not take their relationship any further unless marriage was in the question. "The river had flowed away" implies that the love which they felt for one another was no longer present, the water supply to the river had been cut off, much like the gates of a lock would do, and their love was no more.
The somewhat absent rhyming structure could be foreshadowing the missing puzzle piece that is preventing the couple from being complete after a time that is suppose to bring the pair closer together and complete their love
I would say that "Les Sylphides" by Louise MacNeice is similar to both "Talking in Bed" by Phillip Larkin and "Dedication to my wife" by T.S Elliott, this is because that the first three stanzas of "Les Sylphides" shows a positive outlook on a new relationship and even though the man is near sighted he still took her to go watch the ballet because from what we read it seems like he adores her, however when the poem reachs the last three stanzas, it seems more like Larkin's "Talking in Bed" because it goes into how after a while the relationship begins to dwindle and then it finally seems like the passion and love has gone from their relationship
Good to pick up on the sacrifice the speaker made in going to see the ballet, which he could not see very well at all. The speaker in Larkin's poem makes no sacrifice and is presented similarly to the speaker in MacNeice's poem once they are married and "never again so much together". How much of love is based on effort put in or not put in by each of the participants?
'Les Sylphides' by Louis Macneice and 'Talking in Bed' by Philip Larkin are very similar. 'Taking in Bed' describes how the original passion in a relationship fades away eventually. This makes Larkin's poem an emotive one. This passion that has faded away is reflected on the line 'Dark towns heap up on the horizon.' The idea of a horizon provides pleasant imagery, and could be resembling the initial stages of love as passionate. However Larkin describes 'dark towns' blocking his view, which may be acting as a metaphor for how his initial love has faded away and is replaced with a darker emotion. 'Les Sylphides' could compare to 'Talking in Bed' as Macneice also describes a love which has faded away. However 'Les Syliphides' seems more emotional than 'Talking in Bed' as it describes the initial powerful love, however half way through the poem, in the 3rd stanza, this love is suddenly replaced with sadness. The line 'The music has stopped, the dancers took their curtain' also acts as a metaphor to reflect how their love has faded away. Music is a very powerful thing, able to influence people's emotions. Music is therefore very similar to love. Macneice describes the music to have 'stopped', giving the impression that this love has come to a sudden and final end. 'The Dancers' provide pleasant imagery of graceful ballerinas, reflecting love. However them taking 'their curtain' demonstrates love disappearing. Both poems were written in the 20th century, which could explain why they are so similar, for example both using metaphors to describe how love has faded away. However the poem 'La Belle Dame Sans Merci' was written by John Keats in the 19th century, and has a rather different take on love. Keats uses very romantic and pleasant language such as 'and on thy cheeks a fading rose.' His use of old fashioned English seems to create a romantic mood. Keats does not describe how initial love fades, but describes a passionate love, as Macneice briefly describes. However, unlike Macneice, Keats is describing unrequited love, and quite possibly lust, which is not the same as true love and is often mistaken. Therefore Keat's poem would be very different to Larkin's and Macneice's. One aspect the poems have in common is the use of metaphors. However Keats uses a metaphor to describe feelings of love, whereas the others use it to describe love fading away or disappearing. Keats describes a woman as a 'faery's child', providing imagery that she is very beautiful and provoking the reader to acknowledge that this is perhaps lust. Overall, poems from the same century seem to be similar, however poems from different centuries such as the 19th and 20th century are different. However they are similar to an extent as the both have strong use of metaphor, leading me to realize that poems from the 19th and 20th century are not that different after all in their approach towards love.
Both Larkin and MacNeice explore the idea of loss within a relationship but they do this contrastingly. MacNeice uses 'Les Sylphides’ in order to describe the extremity of the feelings and emotions that love can provide at the beginning of a relationship and then continues this exploration of love by giving insight into a relationship after ‘the river had come to a lock’ and the couple became committed. However Larkin looks at love with a less common view within ‘Talking in Bed’ and seems to take an even more sombre interpretation. He presents an image of a couple who are suffering a breakdown of communication and gives the reader the impression that the love that the couple felt for each other cannot be retrieved. Larkin maybe trying to covey that they both feel not only isolated from the world around them but also secluded in their own bed. MacNeice is able to describe the story of this couple from the start of their relationship and as a result, this poem may have more of an effect on the reader as he is able to develop the poem and the story fully in a way that informs the readers of the true happenings and reasons for the breakdown and loss of their relationship. Larkin only describes the later period of the couple within his poem and so this does not impact the reader as much as MacNeice’s poem. Both poets explore the decimation of love but do this in different ways. For example MacNeice goes from describing the ‘swell of music’, something that creates a very light tone within the poem to illustrating the idea that the couple became ‘divided by the evening paper’. However Larkin is very direct and uses imagery when talking about 'dark town’s heap up on the horizon'. By using this negative natural imagery he is able to convey the idea that the couple are not feeling a sense of fulfilment. Much like Larkin, MacNeice uses imagery but does this in a way in order to highlight the extreme emotions that were felt when the couple first embarked on their journey through love when he describes the feelings of ‘floating’. This use of imagery is opposing to that of Larkin as MacNeice uses it to explain the contended period whereas Larkin uses it to describe a more sombre period of the relationship. Moreover both poems have visibly a very regular structure which stays constant throughout. This may suggest that the breakdown and failure of relationships is something that will always remain and cannot be changed.
In both `Les Sylphides` by MacNeice and `Talking In Bed` by Larkin the portrayal of a vastly deteriorated love between two people is conveyed and the desolation that the two individuals are portrayed to feel. MacNeice conveys the deterioration of the love which he once shared with his wife by the use of deep, meaningful metaphors "The river had come to a lock" which conveys that he felt as though he and his girlfriend could not take their relationship any further unless marriage was in the question. "The river had flowed away" implies that the love which they felt for one another was no longer present, the water supply to the river had been cut off, much like the gates of a lock would do, and their love was no more. However Larkin uses pathetic fallacy to convey the way in which he and his wife end up. “The wind's incomplete unrest” may imply that the relationship between the couple was one full of friction and disagreements from the off and may have cause nights of restlessness and inability to sleep; hence the inability to forge a conversation when doing something as simple as lying in bed together.
The somewhat absent rhyming structure in both `Les Sylphides` and `Talking In Bed` could be foreshadowing the missing puzzle piece that is preventing the couple from being complete after a time that is supposed to bring the pair closer together and complete their love. Both MacNeice and Larkin convey a sense that there is no such thing as an infinite love or love that lasts until the end of time, and that perhaps so many couples stay together through the unhappiness, and the falling out of love just because they feel locked up together without means of escape “To enter the lock and drop”
The poets may have written with a lack of structure to portray the lack of structure that the relationships held; also the lack of effort to create a structure could convey the lack off effort between the pair to talk or try and converse.
'Talking In Bed' by Phillip Larkin conveys a very sombre image of love to the reader and describes how 'it becomes still more difficult to find' the words to say to each other. He clearly conveys the sense of broken communication within the poem, however Larkin enables to reader to create their own perspective of love, whether this be negative or positive due to the fact that the couple may feel so comfortable with each other that they feel they do not need to speak in order to communicate. This is supported by the structure of the poem which consists of three stanzas made up of three lines each. The continuous structure may reflect the continuous silence between the couple. Larkin uses a very simple, repetitive structure so as to reflect the fact that the couple’s relationship within the poem is long and as repetitive as the meticulous structure. Whereas, Eliot uses repetition of language such as 'same' and 'our' to show how the couple have been in each other’s lives for so long that they feel as if they are 'one'. The use of repetition reflects two very different types of relationships, a dedicated and loving relationships and a long and unloving relationship. As well as Larkin, MacNeice also explores the duration of a relationships within his poem ‘Les Sylphides’. Although MacNeice plays with romantic images and describes how he took his girl to the ballet, he quickly undermines what is to happen with the line ‘being short-sighted himself he could hardly see it’. Still the poem then turns this around and makes this short-sightedness act as a kind of impressionistic filter through which the ballet becomes something blurred but beautiful, and the imagination of the man fills in the gaps and invents his own ballet ‘under the waltzing trees’. He describes how love disappears within real life and describes the powerful disappointment of the relationship described within his poem. It is almost as if this life, this marriage can be summed up in one day. It’s as if after this nothing else really happened, at least between these two people. The poem also works quite well if shifted in the first person (though the shift of perspective in the last stanza would have to be changed), but I think the “he”, “she” and “they” make the poem more universal enabling the reader to envisage their own theoretical couple and to interpret the poem in any way that they wish; it is not specific to certain people. Larkin and MacNeice both use powerful adjectives and imagery in order to emphasise the relationships within their poems. MacNeice goes from describing the ‘swell of the music’, indicating the joyous beginning of the relationship to describe how the couple had been ‘divided by the evening paper’. Similarly, Larkin also uses imagery of ‘dark towns’ being built ‘up on the horizon’ to describe the couples lacking relationships almost parallel to the lacking substance of the half built town.
Larkin’s ‘Talking in Bed’ and Elliot’s ‘Dedication to my wife’ show a contrast of emotion between two couples. Larkin’s poem shows the loss of feelings between this couple, and how this couple has a lack of interest for each other. This is a direct contrast to Elliot’s poem that shows how love should be shared between two people. Throughout ‘Talking in bed’ Larkin uses very ‘unkind’ words to fill the silence that is taking place. Both poems show a range of emotions of different poets in the time of their writing. It shows that in different era’s such as the Victorian era or the postmodern era, like is portrayed and seen in a different way.
I agree, but you could also compare Larkin's 'Talking In Bed' to MacNeices's 'Les Sylphides’ as both poems reflect the breakdown of a relationship and how the couples within their poems have grown apart. Both poets use imagery so as to cement their points in the readers minds, with MacNeice using the act of watching a ballet and Larkin referring to the ruins of a half built town.
Good point. I have looked at poets writing during the Victorian era as well. One poet that wrote in the Victorian Era was Thomas Hardy. One of his most famous poems was called ‘The Ruined Made’, published 1866. In this poem Hardy shows us how a person can be portrayed as a rich and successful, but underneath they are selling there body for a price of their choice.
This poem is a very good representation of the ideas and values during the Victorian Era. During this era, love as an emotion was scare and the only way that women knew to make money was through the act of selling their bodies, therefore they were experiencing forced or necessary love. Although the 'ruined maid' within the poem is shown to have succeed in her quest for wealth, she feels that she has no real personal gain as she is in fact 'ruined' and does not wish her fate upon other women.
I agree with Laura as during the Victorian time period women were most likely to solicit themselves as an act to get money or work as maids of ruling class. This is like the ‘ruined maid’ is a clear example of this is the line “ ‘O didn’t you know I’d been ruined? Said she” This is how love started to change as it was not a sentimental, marital event.
Love through the ages is convey in different and similar ways for example in both `Les Sylphides` by MacNeice and `Talking In Bed` by Larkin convey a vastly declined love between two people is conveyed and the desolation that the two individuals are portrayed to feel. Larkin uses pathetic fallacy to convey the way in which he and his wife end up. “The wind's incomplete unrest” may imply that the relationship between the couple was one full of friction and disagreements from the off and may have cause nights of restlessness and inability to sleep; hence the inability to forge a conversation when doing something as simple as lying in bed together. However MacNeice portrays the decline of the love which he once shared with his wife by the use of deep, meaningful metaphors "The river had come to a lock.” This quote shows which that he felt as though he and his girlfriend could not take their relationship any further unless marriage was in the question. "The river had flowed away" implies that the love which they felt for one another was no longer present, the water supply to the river had been cut off, much like the gates of a lock would do, and their love was no more. Another point is that there is an absent rhyming structure in both `Les Sylphides` and `Talking In Bed` This could foreshadow the missing puzzle piece that is preventing the couple from being complete. Both MacNeice and Larkin convey a sense that there is no such thing as an infinite love or love that lasts until the end of time, and that perhaps so many couples stay together through the unhappiness, and the falling out of love just because they feel locked up together without means of escape “To enter the lock and drop.” This is how the poets across the ages convey different and similar aspects of love.
‘Talking in Bed’ by Phillip Larkin expresses a sombre tone of how love is deteriorating within a relationship. This is a couple who are isolated from the outside world, but are also isolated from each other, even when lying so close in bed. “Talking in bed ought to be easiest” this displays the awkwardness in the relationship were “Yet more and more time passes silently”. ‘Les Sylphides’ is a complete contrast to ‘Talking in Bed’ as Louis MacNeice talks about his love of a couple who started their love when “he took his girl to the ballet”. MacNeice uses imagery of a canal lock on stanza four. When describing once were through there is no going back which influences their relationship when expressing how their marital life will go.
I agree that the poems contrast but think that the poets have the same opinions on love. their poems suggest that they are both cynical about love and they don't believe that it can ever be successful in long term commitment.
Philip Larkin portrays love in a post-modern era. He presents a couple nearing the end of their relationship, the speaker’s voice maybe even contemplating divorce, showing that relationships don’t always work. “Talking in bed ought to be easiest” states Larkin, this shows that the couple are finding it hard to communicate even in their most close and intimate surroundings. They both feel alone despite being physically lying next to each other in bed. This indicates that Larkin has a pessimistic view on love, maybe not believing in it or that it can be successful. He uses natural imagery to represent his state of mind. The impending break up builds up a storm in his mind. The "clouds" and "wind" fog his brain and make him question his relationship. The weather could also have been used by Larkin as the weather isn't something you can control. This reflects his feelings towards his partner. He wishes he felt something for them like "back so far" he did but it's uncontrollable. In contrast Louis MacNeice tells a “life in a day”, the relationship he portrays begins happily with him taking his “girl to the ballet” however as soon as the relationship turns committed into marriage, represented by the “river coming to a lock”, the marriage declines. MacNeice seems to be disappointed and sad that his relationship maybe wasn’t what he thought it was as it was weakened by marriage. These poems differ as MacNeice shows the whole story of how the relationship broke down however Larkin only tells the end of the failing relationship which suggests he has a worse opinion on love than MacNeice as he doesn’t mention any earlier time where they were once happy.
The poem ‘My Pretty Rose Tree’ by William Blake could be compared to the poem ‘Talking in Bed’ by Philip Larkin, in that the aspects of love conveyed in each are fairly similar. Both poems convey a love that is no longer as strong as it once was and show how something once beautiful can be turned to something negative and possibly quite hurtful. For example, Blake speaks of how his ‘pretty rose tree turned away with jealousy’ and left him with ‘thorns’, which could resemble how his once pretty love had turned to something sharp and capable of inflicting pain, just as Larkin represents love as not being beautiful, but monotonous and bland. This is conveyed when he explains that ‘time passes silently’ between the couple, creating a relationship which appears boring, lonely and awkward. However, a difference between the two poems is that we are not shown a positive side to love within Larkin’s poem ‘Talking in Bed’, or how it has broken down. We are only shown a relationship which is quite dark and isolated the whole way through, and this could be presented by his use of imagery in the phrase ‘dark towns heap up on horizon’, suggesting that the dark outside world has stopped their love from ever being true. We are only presented with a gloomy aspect of love, which could suggest that their love was always bleak and unexciting, whereas in Blake’s poem we are presented with how their love was once true, but has been affected badly over time by ‘jealousy’. On the other hand, the aspect of love portrayed in the poem ‘Les Sylphides’ by Louis MacNiece could be compared to both the poem ‘My Pretty Rose Tree’ and ‘Talking in Bed’, as the love conveyed in MacNiece’s poem is at first seen as being something elegant and beautiful, and this is conveyed when their love is compared to the ‘ballet’. However, we are later shown that after marriage the couple, ‘were never again so much the same’, suggesting the love was no longer as strong. This is similar to Blake’s poem as he too describes his love as turning negative, and is similar to Larkin’s in that he describes his love as being somewhat bleak.
Elliot argues that his love for his wife is enduring with words such as "No peevish winter wind shall chill,No sullen tropic sun shall wither, The roses in the rose-garden which is ours and ours only". However, Larkin argues that love does not endure but deteriorates over time leaving the couple with nothing to say to each other.
The two poets, Larkin and MacNeice, explore loss of love in different contexts; one pre-WW2 and one post-WW2. The different contexts are conveyed in the poems with the earlier poem presenting the reader with a restrained exposure of loss resulting in hidden emotions whilst the later poem acknowledges that the lack of passion now results in conversation ‘unkind’ and ‘untrue’.
ReplyDeleteBoth poets use language to convey feelings of isolation in a complex fashion. Metaphors for love in the initial phase from MacNeice include a ballet with costumes and flower imagery “calyx upon calyx”. The metaphors are extended as marriage approaches with a “lock” that must be entered, never to return. Larkin, similarly, uses the metaphor to communicate repressed passion whereby the “wind’s incomplete unrest” remains “outside” and “dark towns heap up on the horizon”. Both poets use the metaphor to explore feelings of loss after the promise of passion to some extent.
Larkin's 'Talking in bed' portrays the more sinister side to love, it is evident Larkin is describing the faded bond of love between supposedly him and his partner. It is portrayed that something as simple as 'Talking in bed' with a partner can become a testing task between the two, as there is a huge lack of communication - "It becomes still more difficult to find words at once true and kind". This line represents the loss of that electric connection the couple once maintained, however now there seems to be such a little spark, if any. However, Eliot's 'Dedication to my wife' seems to portray a complete opposite side of love, through a poem written for his wife at their wedding. This poem is very passionate and emotive, in contrast to Larkin's blunt, almost disappointed toned used throughout 'Talking in bed'. Eliot portrays his strong sense of love and bond to his partner by stating "Who think the same thoughts without need of speech." This shows that Eliot does not feel obliged to communicate with his lover, unlike Larkin, as their connection is deep enough to bring them together - even with no verbal communication.
ReplyDeleteLily Foreman:
ReplyDeleteIn the poem 'Talking in Bed' Larkin portrays this poem in a different more relaxed way as the poem creates a sombre, intimate atmosphere expressed in private through the closeness of lying in bed. But, this can suggest that things are not as good as they can only communicate in a homily setting and nowhere else which could mean that they have trouble communicating in general. This poem can also suggest that there is a slight isolation between the couple as this is shown through the iambic pentameter as "telling lies over a long period of time" could show that the couple have been lying to each other for a while now, maybe about their true feelings towards each other as the spark in the marriage could has simply disappeared. However, in contrast to this in 'Dedication to my wife' Eliot expresses love in a more public view as he uses metaphors such as, 'the leaping delight' and 'the rhythm' which can portray two different types of love. Whereas in 'Talking in bed' only suggests one type of love which has faded over time. Eliot suggests love in many stages, as the first stage he mentions is of the infatuation stage where love is seen as magical as it can make you 'leap' of delight skipping of the heartbeat. But, as time progresses the 'rhythm' can remain dead as this is what remains after the euphoria has gone.
In comparison to 'Talking in bed', 'Les Sylphides is more emotive as Neice ends his poem is a more cold ending when they get married as he comes to the realisation that is is no longer magical, but being married creates a more honest approach as reality has hit him, such as finaces and having children; This poem written by Mac Neice is simular to the poem 'Talking in bed' by Larkin as they both use a depressive tone when refering to their love. Neice portrays the beginning of their love through the flawlessness of ballet as it is shown both in illustrating the imagery of the ballet, by the scene set in the second phrase of the first line, `He took his girl to the ballet`, and from then, a series of beautiful and romantic images are created of the show to show how happy and joyful their relationship was.The white and girlish clothes symbolize the purity and innocence of the relationship and the lovers. However, the end of the romance begins in the phrase, `But the music stopped` and this is followed through later with, `And so they were married`. Real life is seen to enter in the last three stanzas, and here MacNeice abandons the romantic love felt at the beginning, showing instead the drudgery of domestic life. The tone changes to more pensive reflecting on deep thoughts and wistful. The use of the interval in these stanzas: `-a shuffle of programmes - ` and `- to be the more together -`, marks a change from the flowing, even line rhythm earlier in the poem.
DeleteGood to comment on structure and impact here Lily.
DeleteAlthough 'Les Sylphides' written by Louis MacNeice is describing a very similar situation to Larkin's 'talking in bed' he does it in a very emotive way, rather than an angry way. The deepening sadness within MacNeice's poem is clear to be throughout, as he describes their unbreakable almost honeymoon period at the beginning of their relationship. However, Larkin starts his poem off instantly with a negative ora. Due to the fact that MacNeice starts his poem off with a happy tone and slowly fades into a saddening tone the reader may feel deeply upset by this situation, as it is evident a once extremely happy relationship has shattered into a broken bond, due to life experiences. This could also create a very saddening feeling towards the reader, as it is very common for this to happen, even in this day and age.
ReplyDeleteAs well as this, Larkin uses the dull weather to portray his feelings, in contrast to this MacNeice uses a beautiful imagery of ballet, which is often related to elegance and the feeling of weightlessness, much like the feeling of love. Therefore, his feelings could be relatable to the readers. As a result of this, the heartbreak MacNeice experiences towards the end of the poem could be seen as extremely emotional and effective towards his feelings, as it's clear he had a strong sense of love for his lover at the beginning of the poem. This is very similar to Eliot's poem 'dedication to my wife' as he is extremely open about his excitable feeling of love towards his soon to be wife.
DeleteMacNeice conveys the deterioration of the love which he once shared with his wife by the use of deep, meaningful metaphors "The river had come to a lock" which conveys that he felt as though he and his girlfriend could not take their relationship any further unless marriage was in the question. "The river had flowed away" implies that the love which they felt for one another was no longer present, the water supply to the river had been cut off, much like the gates of a lock would do, and their love was no more.
ReplyDeleteThe somewhat absent rhyming structure could be foreshadowing the missing puzzle piece that is preventing the couple from being complete after a time that is suppose to bring the pair closer together and complete their love
Yes, language and structure has significant impact in MacNeice's poem, well done both here.
DeleteI would say that "Les Sylphides" by Louise MacNeice is similar to both "Talking in Bed" by Phillip Larkin and "Dedication to my wife" by T.S Elliott, this is because that the first three stanzas of "Les Sylphides" shows a positive outlook on a new relationship and even though the man is near sighted he still took her to go watch the ballet because from what we read it seems like he adores her, however when the poem reachs the last three stanzas, it seems more like Larkin's "Talking in Bed" because it goes into how after a while the relationship begins to dwindle and then it finally seems like the passion and love has gone from their relationship
ReplyDeleteGood to pick up on the sacrifice the speaker made in going to see the ballet, which he could not see very well at all. The speaker in Larkin's poem makes no sacrifice and is presented similarly to the speaker in MacNeice's poem once they are married and "never again so much together". How much of love is based on effort put in or not put in by each of the participants?
Delete'Les Sylphides' by Louis Macneice and 'Talking in Bed' by Philip Larkin are very similar. 'Taking in Bed' describes how the original passion in a relationship fades away eventually. This makes Larkin's poem an emotive one. This passion that has faded away is reflected on the line 'Dark towns heap up on the horizon.' The idea of a horizon provides pleasant imagery, and could be resembling the initial stages of love as passionate. However Larkin describes 'dark towns' blocking his view, which may be acting as a metaphor for how his initial love has faded away and is replaced with a darker emotion. 'Les Sylphides' could compare to 'Talking in Bed' as Macneice also describes a love which has faded away. However 'Les Syliphides' seems more emotional than 'Talking in Bed' as it describes the initial powerful love, however half way through the poem, in the 3rd stanza, this love is suddenly replaced with sadness. The line 'The music has stopped, the dancers took their curtain' also acts as a metaphor to reflect how their love has faded away. Music is a very powerful thing, able to influence people's emotions. Music is therefore very similar to love. Macneice describes the music to have 'stopped', giving the impression that this love has come to a sudden and final end. 'The Dancers' provide pleasant imagery of graceful ballerinas, reflecting love. However them taking 'their curtain' demonstrates love disappearing. Both poems were written in the 20th century, which could explain why they are so similar, for example both using metaphors to describe how love has faded away. However the poem 'La Belle Dame Sans Merci' was written by John Keats in the 19th century, and has a rather different take on love. Keats uses very romantic and pleasant language such as 'and on thy cheeks a fading rose.' His use of old fashioned English seems to create a romantic mood. Keats does not describe how initial love fades, but describes a passionate love, as Macneice briefly describes. However, unlike Macneice, Keats is describing unrequited love, and quite possibly lust, which is not the same as true love and is often mistaken. Therefore Keat's poem would be very different to Larkin's and Macneice's. One aspect the poems have in common is the use of metaphors. However Keats uses a metaphor to describe feelings of love, whereas the others use it to describe love fading away or disappearing. Keats describes a woman as a 'faery's child', providing imagery that she is very beautiful and provoking the reader to acknowledge that this is perhaps lust.
ReplyDeleteOverall, poems from the same century seem to be similar, however poems from different centuries such as the 19th and 20th century are different. However they are similar to an extent as the both have strong use of metaphor, leading me to realize that poems from the 19th and 20th century are not that different after all in their approach towards love.
Both Larkin and MacNeice explore the idea of loss within a relationship but they do this contrastingly. MacNeice uses 'Les Sylphides’ in order to describe the extremity of the feelings and emotions that love can provide at the beginning of a relationship and then continues this exploration of love by giving insight into a relationship after ‘the river had come to a lock’ and the couple became committed. However Larkin looks at love with a less common view within ‘Talking in Bed’ and seems to take an even more sombre interpretation. He presents an image of a couple who are suffering a breakdown of communication and gives the reader the impression that the love that the couple felt for each other cannot be retrieved. Larkin maybe trying to covey that they both feel not only isolated from the world around them but also secluded in their own bed. MacNeice is able to describe the story of this couple from the start of their relationship and as a result, this poem may have more of an effect on the reader as he is able to develop the poem and the story fully in a way that informs the readers of the true happenings and reasons for the breakdown and loss of their relationship. Larkin only describes the later period of the couple within his poem and so this does not impact the reader as much as MacNeice’s poem. Both poets explore the decimation of love but do this in different ways. For example MacNeice goes from describing the ‘swell of music’, something that creates a very light tone within the poem to illustrating the idea that the couple became ‘divided by the evening paper’. However Larkin is very direct and uses imagery when talking about 'dark town’s heap up on the horizon'. By using this negative natural imagery he is able to convey the idea that the couple are not feeling a sense of fulfilment. Much like Larkin, MacNeice uses imagery but does this in a way in order to highlight the extreme emotions that were felt when the couple first embarked on their journey through love when he describes the feelings of ‘floating’. This use of imagery is opposing to that of Larkin as MacNeice uses it to explain the contended period whereas Larkin uses it to describe a more sombre period of the relationship. Moreover both poems have visibly a very regular structure which stays constant throughout. This may suggest that the breakdown and failure of relationships is something that will always remain and cannot be changed.
ReplyDeleteIn both `Les Sylphides` by MacNeice and `Talking In Bed` by Larkin the portrayal of a vastly deteriorated love between two people is conveyed and the desolation that the two individuals are portrayed to feel.
ReplyDeleteMacNeice conveys the deterioration of the love which he once shared with his wife by the use of deep, meaningful metaphors "The river had come to a lock" which conveys that he felt as though he and his girlfriend could not take their relationship any further unless marriage was in the question. "The river had flowed away" implies that the love which they felt for one another was no longer present, the water supply to the river had been cut off, much like the gates of a lock would do, and their love was no more.
However Larkin uses pathetic fallacy to convey the way in which he and his wife end up. “The wind's incomplete unrest” may imply that the relationship between the couple was one full of friction and disagreements from the off and may have cause nights of restlessness and inability to sleep; hence the inability to forge a conversation when doing something as simple as lying in bed together.
The somewhat absent rhyming structure in both `Les Sylphides` and `Talking In Bed` could be foreshadowing the missing puzzle piece that is preventing the couple from being complete after a time that is supposed to bring the pair closer together and complete their love.
Both MacNeice and Larkin convey a sense that there is no such thing as an infinite love or love that lasts until the end of time, and that perhaps so many couples stay together through the unhappiness, and the falling out of love just because they feel locked up together without means of escape “To enter the lock and drop”
Do you think the lack of effort by the poet to create rhyme concurs with lack of effort from the speaker to create harmony?
DeleteThe poets may have written with a lack of structure to portray the lack of structure that the relationships held; also the lack of effort to create a structure could convey the lack off effort between the pair to talk or try and converse.
DeleteYes I agree with you. Thanks for raising this and well done for maintaining a tentative voice here.
Delete'Talking In Bed' by Phillip Larkin conveys a very sombre image of love to the reader and describes how 'it becomes still more difficult to find' the words to say to each other. He clearly conveys the sense of broken communication within the poem, however Larkin enables to reader to create their own perspective of love, whether this be negative or positive due to the fact that the couple may feel so comfortable with each other that they feel they do not need to speak in order to communicate. This is supported by the structure of the poem which consists of three stanzas made up of three lines each. The continuous structure may reflect the continuous silence between the couple. Larkin uses a very simple, repetitive structure so as to reflect the fact that the couple’s relationship within the poem is long and as repetitive as the meticulous structure. Whereas, Eliot uses repetition of language such as 'same' and 'our' to show how the couple have been in each other’s lives for so long that they feel as if they are 'one'. The use of repetition reflects two very different types of relationships, a dedicated and loving relationships and a long and unloving relationship. As well as Larkin, MacNeice also explores the duration of a relationships within his poem ‘Les Sylphides’. Although MacNeice plays with romantic images and describes how he took his girl to the ballet, he quickly undermines what is to happen with the line ‘being short-sighted himself he could hardly see it’. Still the poem then turns this around and makes this short-sightedness act as a kind of impressionistic filter through which the ballet becomes something blurred but beautiful, and the imagination of the man fills in the gaps and invents his own ballet ‘under the waltzing trees’. He describes how love disappears within real life and describes the powerful disappointment of the relationship described within his poem. It is almost as if this life, this marriage can be summed up in one day. It’s as if after this nothing else really happened, at least between these two people.
ReplyDeleteThe poem also works quite well if shifted in the first person (though the shift of perspective in the last stanza would have to be changed), but I think the “he”, “she” and “they” make the poem more universal enabling the reader to envisage their own theoretical couple and to interpret the poem in any way that they wish; it is not specific to certain people. Larkin and MacNeice both use powerful adjectives and imagery in order to emphasise the relationships within their poems. MacNeice goes from describing the ‘swell of the music’, indicating the joyous beginning of the relationship to describe how the couple had been ‘divided by the evening paper’. Similarly, Larkin also uses imagery of ‘dark towns’ being built ‘up on the horizon’ to describe the couples lacking relationships almost parallel to the lacking substance of the half built town.
Larkin’s ‘Talking in Bed’ and Elliot’s ‘Dedication to my wife’ show a contrast of emotion between two couples. Larkin’s poem shows the loss of feelings between this couple, and how this couple has a lack of interest for each other. This is a direct contrast to Elliot’s poem that shows how love should be shared between two people. Throughout ‘Talking in bed’ Larkin uses very ‘unkind’ words to fill the silence that is taking place. Both poems show a range of emotions of different poets in the time of their writing. It shows that in different era’s such as the Victorian era or the postmodern era, like is portrayed and seen in a different way.
ReplyDeleteI agree, but you could also compare Larkin's 'Talking In Bed' to MacNeices's 'Les Sylphides’ as both poems reflect the breakdown of a relationship and how the couples within their poems have grown apart. Both poets use imagery so as to cement their points in the readers minds, with MacNeice using the act of watching a ballet and Larkin referring to the ruins of a half built town.
DeleteGood point. I have looked at poets writing during the Victorian era as well. One poet that wrote in the Victorian Era was Thomas Hardy. One of his most famous poems was called ‘The Ruined Made’, published 1866. In this poem Hardy shows us how a person can be portrayed as a rich and successful, but underneath they are selling there body for a price of their choice.
Deletetheir*
DeleteThis poem is a very good representation of the ideas and values during the Victorian Era. During this era, love as an emotion was scare and the only way that women knew to make money was through the act of selling their bodies, therefore they were experiencing forced or necessary love. Although the 'ruined maid' within the poem is shown to have succeed in her quest for wealth, she feels that she has no real personal gain as she is in fact 'ruined' and does not wish her fate upon other women.
DeleteI agree with Laura as during the Victorian time period women were most likely to solicit themselves as an act to get money or work as maids of ruling class. This is like the ‘ruined maid’ is a clear example of this is the line “ ‘O didn’t you know I’d been ruined? Said she” This is how love started to change as it was not a sentimental, marital event.
DeleteLove through the ages is convey in different and similar ways for example in both `Les Sylphides` by MacNeice and `Talking In Bed` by Larkin convey a vastly declined love between two people is conveyed and the desolation that the two individuals are portrayed to feel. Larkin uses pathetic fallacy to convey the way in which he and his wife end up. “The wind's incomplete unrest” may imply that the relationship between the couple was one full of friction and disagreements from the off and may have cause nights of restlessness and inability to sleep; hence the inability to forge a conversation when doing something as simple as lying in bed together. However MacNeice portrays the decline of the love which he once shared with his wife by the use of deep, meaningful metaphors "The river had come to a lock.” This quote shows which that he felt as though he and his girlfriend could not take their relationship any further unless marriage was in the question. "The river had flowed away" implies that the love which they felt for one another was no longer present, the water supply to the river had been cut off, much like the gates of a lock would do, and their love was no more. Another point is that there is an absent rhyming structure in both `Les Sylphides` and `Talking In Bed` This could foreshadow the missing puzzle piece that is preventing the couple from being complete. Both MacNeice and Larkin convey a sense that there is no such thing as an infinite love or love that lasts until the end of time, and that perhaps so many couples stay together through the unhappiness, and the falling out of love just because they feel locked up together without means of escape “To enter the lock and drop.” This is how the poets across the ages convey different and similar aspects of love.
ReplyDelete‘Talking in Bed’ by Phillip Larkin expresses a sombre tone of how love is deteriorating within a relationship. This is a couple who are isolated from the outside world, but are also isolated from each other, even when lying so close in bed. “Talking in bed ought to be easiest” this displays the awkwardness in the relationship were “Yet more and more time passes silently”. ‘Les Sylphides’ is a complete contrast to ‘Talking in Bed’ as Louis MacNeice talks about his love of a couple who started their love when “he took his girl to the ballet”. MacNeice uses imagery of a canal lock on stanza four. When describing once were through there is no going back which influences their relationship when expressing how their marital life will go.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the poems contrast but think that the poets have the same opinions on love. their poems suggest that they are both cynical about love and they don't believe that it can ever be successful in long term commitment.
DeletePhilip Larkin portrays love in a post-modern era. He presents a couple nearing the end of their relationship, the speaker’s voice maybe even contemplating divorce, showing that relationships don’t always work. “Talking in bed ought to be easiest” states Larkin, this shows that the couple are finding it hard to communicate even in their most close and intimate surroundings. They both feel alone despite being physically lying next to each other in bed. This indicates that Larkin has a pessimistic view on love, maybe not believing in it or that it can be successful. He uses natural imagery to represent his state of mind. The impending break up builds up a storm in his mind. The "clouds" and "wind" fog his brain and make him question his relationship. The weather could also have been used by Larkin as the weather isn't something you can control. This reflects his feelings towards his partner. He wishes he felt something for them like "back so far" he did but it's uncontrollable. In contrast Louis MacNeice tells a “life in a day”, the relationship he portrays begins happily with him taking his “girl to the ballet” however as soon as the relationship turns committed into marriage, represented by the “river coming to a lock”, the marriage declines. MacNeice seems to be disappointed and sad that his relationship maybe wasn’t what he thought it was as it was weakened by marriage. These poems differ as MacNeice shows the whole story of how the relationship broke down however Larkin only tells the end of the failing relationship which suggests he has a worse opinion on love than MacNeice as he doesn’t mention any earlier time where they were once happy.
ReplyDeleteThe poem ‘My Pretty Rose Tree’ by William Blake could be compared to the poem ‘Talking in Bed’ by Philip Larkin, in that the aspects of love conveyed in each are fairly similar. Both poems convey a love that is no longer as strong as it once was and show how something once beautiful can be turned to something negative and possibly quite hurtful. For example, Blake speaks of how his ‘pretty rose tree turned away with jealousy’ and left him with ‘thorns’, which could resemble how his once pretty love had turned to something sharp and capable of inflicting pain, just as Larkin represents love as not being beautiful, but monotonous and bland. This is conveyed when he explains that ‘time passes silently’ between the couple, creating a relationship which appears boring, lonely and awkward.
ReplyDeleteHowever, a difference between the two poems is that we are not shown a positive side to love within Larkin’s poem ‘Talking in Bed’, or how it has broken down. We are only shown a relationship which is quite dark and isolated the whole way through, and this could be presented by his use of imagery in the phrase ‘dark towns heap up on horizon’, suggesting that the dark outside world has stopped their love from ever being true. We are only presented with a gloomy aspect of love, which could suggest that their love was always bleak and unexciting, whereas in Blake’s poem we are presented with how their love was once true, but has been affected badly over time by ‘jealousy’.
On the other hand, the aspect of love portrayed in the poem ‘Les Sylphides’ by Louis MacNiece could be compared to both the poem ‘My Pretty Rose Tree’ and ‘Talking in Bed’, as the love conveyed in MacNiece’s poem is at first seen as being something elegant and beautiful, and this is conveyed when their love is compared to the ‘ballet’. However, we are later shown that after marriage the couple, ‘were never again so much the same’, suggesting the love was no longer as strong. This is similar to Blake’s poem as he too describes his love as turning negative, and is similar to Larkin’s in that he describes his love as being somewhat bleak.
Excellent to bring Blake into this debate - the theme is concurrent. Now need to compare linguistic features used and to what impact?
DeleteElliot argues that his love for his wife is enduring with words such as "No peevish winter wind shall chill,No sullen tropic sun shall wither, The roses in the rose-garden which is ours and ours only". However, Larkin argues that love does not endure but deteriorates over time leaving the couple with nothing to say to each other.
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